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Ben Greenfield Corner

Patrick Theut’s Journey & Vitamin K


From podcast: https://bengreenfieldlife.com/podcast/patrick-theut/

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:00:46] Guest and Podcast Intro

[00:02:13] Patrick and His heart

[00:09:30] Link between the gut bacteria and heart disease 

[00:14:22] Different forms of vitamin K

[00:39:20] Supplements to Slow Down Progression of Heart Disease

[00:48:02] Thoughts on Statins and PCSK9 inhibitor

[00:55:06] Diet and exercise modifications

[00:59:20] Closing the Podcast

[01:01:37] End of Podcast

[01:02:38] Legal Disclaimer

Ben:  My name is Ben Greenfield. And, on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

Patrick:  One of the things that was sucked by the K1 was if you take enough vitamin K, it’ll boost your endurance if you’re an athlete. So, if you take a high amount of MK-7, you bind up your peroxides. When you bind up your peroxides, guess what, you don’t get tired. And, being a triathlete, how would you like to have your endurance boosted by 12%?

Ben:  Fitness, nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life show. Are you ready to hack your life? Let’s do this.

I’ve done several podcasts lately about heart health. It’s a topic near and dear to my, oh you knew I was going to do a pun there, near and dear to my heart. Plaque, high calcium scores, coronary artery disease, and other heart concerns. And, in this journey in which I’ve been kind of looking into a lot of the people out there, a lot of the therapies, a lot of the research, I’ve come across a biochemist and engineer who managed to reverse his coronary artery disease. And, he did so using some pretty novel methods and detailed it all in what he calls his “Cardiac Manifesto.” He invested over 16,000 hours of study into the cause of heart disease and has developed specific theories and protocols on how the disease develops and how to stop it from progressing and protocols to even reverse things like plaque.

I’ve been so intrigued with this “Cardiac Manifesto” that I decided I want to get the author on the podcast. His name is Patrick Theut. I’m going to let him fill you in on his background and his story. But, as you listen in, I will link to everything that we talk about if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/VitaminKpodcast. The reason being as you’ll learn during this show, vitamin K definitely plays a key role here. So, Patrick, welcome to the show. And I would just love to hear your story about what happened to you and your heart to get you interested in this in the first place.

Patrick:  Well, it all happened by accident in 2001 when I was getting my tier one MBA at the University of Minnesota, Carlson School. One of my classmates was the Vice chair of Psychology and Psychiatry at the Mayo Clinic. The class in front of us had the head of cardiology. And, the three of us got talking and they convinced me to get what’s called an executive physical. And, it’s a three-day physical. Now, mind you at that time, I was 48 years old, doing 5Ks, 10ks, still playing ice hockey. I’m doing fine.

Ben:  Yeah.

Patrick:  Well, one thing leads to another. They consulted me and teased me and all that. So, I went there for a three-day physical. Honest, I freaking got three days. Why? That was something. And, I passed everything with flying colors as I pretty much assumed I would. But, what was really crazy was my last morning there, my attending personal care physician said, “Is there any other test that you would like run?” And, I had heard about these calcium score tests while driving through Chicago about six, eight months earlier. And, I said, “Hey, do you have something to do with calcium test or calcium score?” They said, “Yes, we do but we don’t recommend it.” I said, “Why?” They said, “Because you passed all your tests without a problem.” I said, “Okay. But, don’t you have to give me what I ask for?” “Oh, yeah we do.” I says,” Okay, I want one.”

Well, she reluctantly gave me one at 11 o’clock in the morning. That took five minutes. It was an EBT scan. Really very accurate. So then, I go to lunch and that’s when it all freaking changed. I had pot roast potatoes, gravy, some green beans, and a Shapiro beer. I never forget that was kind of my last meal before.

Ben:  I was going to say, were you trying to game the test?

Patrick:  So, my next interview is with all the attending physicians. And, I want to say one thing. If it wasn’t for the Mayo Clinic, I’d be dead. So, hats off to them. They did a great job. They really did. So, I go into the 1:30 meeting and there’s my two friends and the other attending physicians based on my various things. The kidney guy was there and a heart guy was there and then this, that. I sat down I said, “Boy, looks like somebody just died.” And, he goes, “Pat, well, you underestimate things or understate things.” So, they put on my calcium score in the flat screen. So, they’re going through the sagittal sections of my heart. We get to my left main and it was glowing like a rib. And like, “That don’t look good.”

Ben:  Oh, and by the way, just to interject here, I had a somewhat similar experience. I’m getting a little bit of deja vu because with stellar scores on the EKG, the VO2, the Flow scan score, pretty much every single test for my heart, even my lipid panel was pristine and my LVA had 8% blockage. I didn’t do the calcium scan, I did a more advanced version of it called the Cleerly CT angiography but pretty much similar idea, right? Walking around everybody telling me my heart was great. And, this was about a year ago now and same thing when I actually went in and did diagnostic imaging, it was an entirely different story.

Patrick: Yep. I can relate.

Ben:  Yeah.

Patrick: So, one thing leads to another and they say, “Well, we want to see you next week to do some more detailed testing.” I said, “As an injured hip, good idea.”

Ben:  Yeah.

Patrick:  It’s how bad that is. So, that score was at 337 only and all in my left main. My left main was completely calcified from the wall of the heart to the branch.

Ben:  Wow.

Patrick:  Good Lord. But, my background as a premed and back in another life, so I knew all human physiology, human anatomy, and all that stuff. I’m pretty good at it. So, I go back the following week, they do a big workup and they said, “10% of the people who have calcium build up in arteries, their arteries expand rather than contract.”  And, that’s what we think is going to happen to you based on the genetics of my mother’s side of the family because they all died of arterial blowouts. Every one of them. 

Ben:  Wow.

Patrick:  Well, the attending cardiologist, great guy. I still keep in touch with him every now. And, he said, “You’ve got four years to live at the rate of progression and how bad your left main is and it’s a banged pipe.” And, I said, “Well, can’t you just fix it right now?” And, they said, “No, we can’t do that. The stent ain’t going to work because your pipe’s already large. So, the wall is going to get thinner and thinner and thinner, and that’s going to burst.” I said, and this exact quote that I said to him, “My body got me into this mess, my body can get me out of this mess.” And, he said that to my two friends and he said to my friends, “This guy is in denial. I should have told him in the first place.” And, my two friend says, “Oh, we talked to Pat when he left and he’s got that look in his eye. He’ll figure this out.”

And so, I got back to home. Well, first time I got back home, I started really digging through the internet. Back then in the early 2000s, it was all geeky stuff. I’ve got a biochemistry background, a chemistry physiology, all that background, engineering, so I could read all that geeky stuff and I could read it pretty quick. And, I started diving into it and diving into it and diving into it and diving into it. And, by the middle of January of 2003, now remember this is about eight weeks after all this stuff happened, I found in Tiburon California–now, remember this is January of 2003 and they said heart disease, I got bacteria problem. And, I’ve got a background in anaerobic bacteria and I kind of know how those little critters work. And, I said, “Given what happens to people, it’s got to be a gut bacteria problem.” And, he said, “What else?” Yeah, I says, “Vitamin D plays a big role.”

At the middle of February, thyroid-free T3 has a huge role in your heart disease. So, by April, I had a game plan. I basically had a game plan that I’m going to fix this. So, this is how I’m going to fix it.

Ben:  And, by fix it, you mean specifically going after gut bacteria, vitamin D, and thyroid?

Patrick:  Yeah. That and magnesium.

Ben:  Quick question though. Just to backpedal briefly. The gut bacteria piece is interesting. As a matter of fact, in a couple hours, I’m flying down to Phoenix to meet with my dentist, Dr. Eniko Loud, down there who does among other things for my oral health, an oral microbiome test to determine risk for plaque accumulation and cardiovascular disease based on the oral biome, which is tied to heart disease. But, what’s the link between the gut bacteria and heart disease?

Patrick:  Well, your body is always talking to your gut bacteria. As an example, women were pregnant, they have these urges to eat certain foods. That’s the gut bacteria telling the brain by way of the vagus nerve, “Hey, we need some nutrition that has to be just like this to feed the baby.” The older you get, the less findings you have. Case in point, premenopausal women typically don’t have coronary disease, post-menopausal women do. Why? Because the gut bacteria express themselves different because the hormones are expressed differently.

So, in addition to not getting enough sunlight, a few other things, vitamin D is basically a hormone. The gut bacteria start expressing themselves a very certain way. And, that sets the clock in motion to basically, I call it the stamina effect. After about three years, stamina just up and died because of body’s change. So, your gut bacteria constantly talking with your body and your oral bacteria lost to those bad boys end up in your gut. And, in working with holistic dentists, when you have D, K, mag, and C together, your oral bacteria are really, really happy and you don’t get cavities. I haven’t brushed my teeth in 12 years.

Ben:  Yeah. I mean, what you’re saying is a little bit reminiscent of Dr. Weston A. Price’s initial research on the so-called mysterious cofactor that he identified amongst the host of people who had really great bones and jaws and teeth and turned out to be vitamin K. But, for the gut bacteria, I’m guessing that if someone were to go out and do a stool analysis and they were to find just general dysbiosis that that’s what you’d be looking for essentially bacterial imbalances in the gut.

Patrick:  That’s correct. One of the things that induces it is take a cipro which is a common antibiotic. Cipro selectively kills the gut bacteria that liberate the K out of your diet or make the K that you need from your diet.

Ben:  Oh, okay. So, what we’re talking about here with dysbiosis is specifically poor absorption or bioavailability of vitamin K based on bacterial imbalances in the gut.

Patrick: Absolutely caught the window. That’s exactly in a nutshell. So, let’s just call it, say, tart dried cherries. So, what makes tart dried cherries cherry colored is a benzene group attached to a long string of chemical stuff. Your gut bacteria would make K out of that. They know how to do it. But, if you kill the bacteria that do that, now all of a sudden you don’t have K. It’ll also liberate the K from the food that you eat.

For instance, in the mitochondria of all cells is MK-4. So, if you eat, I’ll just call it a carnivore diet, you’re bathing your gut bacteria with CoQ10 and MK-4. CoQ10 can be rejiggered into MK-4, MK-13, MK-9, MK-6. But, if you don’t have the bacteria that are able to do it, you’re screwed.

Ben:  Yeah, that’s interesting. And, by the way, I should throw in here. I interviewed Dr. Barrie Tan three weeks ago, turns out that annatto, the tocotrienols from annatto can act very similarly to the CoQ10 that you just described, arguably based on his research possibly better while simultaneously for people taking statins keep levels of CoQ10 and statin-associated muscle soreness balanced based on the tocotrienol and the elements of the annatto plant. So, I’ll link to that interview with Dr. Barrie Tan in the shownotes if people want to hear that.

But, you also mentioned just to make sure we establish terms here for people listening in, MK-4. Now, there’s a few different forms of vitamin K, right?

Patrick:  There’s K1, which is phylloquinone, which is basically what you find in broccoli. And then, you have the various MKs called menaquinones with numbers 4 through 13. The common places for MK-4s is in red meat that you eat and MK-7 is in sauerkraut. And, surprisingly enough, the research from [00:14:56] _____ University is all sausages that have been hanging in the butcher shop for a month or so. They’re loaded with these MKs because gut bacteria will convert that stuff into MKs.

Ben:  This is interesting. Do you know, by the way, on average for life expectancy what the longest-lived country in the world is?

Patrick:  I have no clue.

Ben:  Tiny little country between Italy and Spain. I learned this from Dr. Steven Gundry called Andorra. Average life expectancy there is about 88 years old. And, they eat a diet that is primarily comprised of fermented meats and fermented sausages. Yeah.

Patrick:  I believe it. I believe it. All of my relatives lived to be in their 80s and 90s. They died of arterial blowouts, but my great-grandfather used to have a 55-gallon drum of sauerkraut in the backyard. He made his own sausages and he lived to be in his mid-80s and on and on and on.

But anyway, so getting back to my story. So, I dive into this and I come up with a whole long list of [00:16:06] _____ difference in your heart disease. So, I tackled it. And, within two and a half years, I cleaned out my entire left-main. Completely cleared it out.

Ben:  You mean based on a follow-up calcium scan score?

Patrick:  Yes. To date, I’ve had 28 of those little bad boys.

Ben:  Wow.

Patrick:  And, one day, I took two calcium scans within two hours of each other. One was an EBT scan and the other one was a CT scan. I’ve heard all stories about what’s more accurate. Well, test them both.

Ben:  Okay. So, at that point when you saw those effects that was primarily achieved by focusing on gut bacteria, sauerkraut, and other fermented sources, magnesium, vitamin D, and thyroid care.

Patrick:  I make sure my iodine levels were normal. My iodine’s level is really low, but I got them to the normal level. Just eat more iodized salt.

Ben:  Okay.

Patrick:  And, I lost about 30 pounds.

Ben:  And, were you doing anything else for the thyroid besides iodized salt?

Patrick:  Not a thing.

Ben:  Okay.

Patrick:  My free T3 was 3.8, 3.9, which is fine.

Ben:  Yeah.

Patrick:  Now, I’m not an anti-vaxxer within reason. While I was also taking high dose vitamin C at the same time, I was kind of doing the polling protocol and everything was going fine. My blood pressure was fine. I lost my weight. Scans are looking good. I’m feeling great.

So, I’m going to Russia with my son, Eric, so we could train with the Russian Olympic team [00:18:01] _____ high school in track and field.

Ben:  Which sport? Track and field, okay.

Patrick:  Track and field. And so, before I left, my personal care physician, good guy, not a problem, and he say, “Pat, why don’t you get an MMR?” I said, “Why?” He says, “Well, you’re going through the [00:18:22] _____. Could be possibly called a third-world country. Why don’t you just do this, be in the safe side?” At that time, I didn’t know any better. I said “Fine,” so I got it.

Well, I get back, my insulin was now just [00:18:37] _____ 50, my glucose, my sugar was in the high 200s.

Ben:  Oh, wow.

Patrick:  My HDL1-C was 8 or 9, and I was doctoring with Dr. Bill Davis at that time, great guy. The stuff that Bill Davis has done is just fantastic.

Ben:  He’s been on the podcast three times already. He’s the first guy I talked to about the calcium scan score, Dr. William Davis.

Patrick:  Yeah, he’s a good guy. So, Bill says to me, looks at my blood work, he said, “Have you been idle in a cruise ship for the last three months? My god, what’s wrong with you?” Well, I went on, and again, my calcium score just went from basically 20 to 800 in six months.

Ben:  Oh, man. Wow.

Patrick:  And, it’s like, “What the heck?” So, my Aunt Philis and I, at the time she was in late 70s, early 80s, she says, “Did you do something really stupid?” She was a third-grade teacher, so it’s what she do. I said, “I didn’t change a thing. I’m an engineer. I do everything by the book.” And, she said, “You don’t inject yourself with anything?” I said, “Well, I got a MMR vaccination, but what’s that?” Well, she says, “Why don’t you research that now that you’re researching things?” So, I started. Oh, my god.

Ben:  Really?

Patrick:  Talk about a Pandora’s Box. Well, make a long story short, the MMR shut off my thyroid because my TSH went to 7.

Ben:  Oh, wow.

Patrick:  My insulin was off the charts. My heart disease went right through the freaking roof. And, more research, the more I realize some vaccines are the propensity of inducing your immune system to attack your gut bacteria. Okay, lovely. So now, I had to get my pancreas fixed. And, at the time, God loved him, Dr. Bill Davis was right there standing with me to help me.

Ben:  And, you had to get your pancreas fixed due to insulin dysregulation that could have been a result of thyroid dysregulation, or was the insulin dysregulation separate from that?

Patrick:  Both separate. Why had happened on further investigation up to that point before I got the MMR, I was at 15 grams of vitamin C a day. Always like 20,000 IUs of D. On my immune system, the way it was described to me, my immune system–and, I saw that on my blood work. Just before I went to Russia, my white blood cell count was ungodly low. And, another personal care physician said, “Are you okay?” I says, “I’m fine because I’ve got the chemistry killing critters. That doesn’t mean that I need to get my immune system amped up.” “Well, what was described to me was your immune system was like lying on a shade’s lounge right on the beach in St. Thomas or St. Kitts and somebody walked up and poured out a bucket of ice water at it.” So, my immune system panicked in so many ways, and just started attacking things. Because the body is designed to take viruses and bacteria, molds and funguses and yeasts, either through your lungs or through say cuts and bruises and stuff like that. It’s not designed to be injected with stuff, especially if your immune system was sleepy.

Well, I started researching on how to fix my pancreas. It takes about three years for your body to regenerate itself. All of your organs are regenerated in three to five years.

Ben:  And, you’re specifically, in this case, talking about pancreatic beta cell regeneration?

Patrick:  Yup, exactly. My pancreas was working at a very low level. So, I knew, I have some stuff that I could regrow, which is great. Okay. So, I put myself and I’m not recommending this to your listeners because this is really out there, but I was desperate. My calcium scores run through the freaking hoop. So, I put myself on a diet of chelated vanadium because vanadium used to be what people were doing once they had diabetes 80, 90 years earlier.

Ben:  Well, I know this, by the way, vanadium and secondarily chromium because actually I own a supplements company and we have a blood sugar control product. And, two of the primary ingredients are, well, three of them are vanadium, chromium, and bitter melon extract for the reasons you’re stating. Yeah.

Patrick:  Yeah, rain out of money. That’s the way to do it. So, I basically got on vanadium for three years, shut my pancreas off, basically, and I let my pancreas regrow itself. I got on my thyroid because my thyroid was shot. No doctor would prescribe it for me, so I eventually found some on the web. Ordered up there. And basically, I was in holding pattern and my calcium score is growing at about 5% per year.

And, by July of 2010, I’ll be very blunt, I was pretty depressed. I’m not depressed, just plain bummed out. I was like, “Jesus, what more can happen?” So, I walked myself into my house for a week and all I did was regrow over my blood work and regrow over all of the research papers that I had read up until that point. I went through everything. I think I got about three, four hours of sleep every night.

And unbelievably, two things happened. I looked at some blood work done by my personal care physician at Traverse City, Michigan, Dr. Katherine Roth from [00:24:42] _____. She, by the way, did a K1 test on me. At that point, I wasn’t really taking K. I’m trying to minimize my variables. And, my K1 is really low. I mean, dangerously low.

Ben:  And, that’s a simple blood test, right?  K1.

Patrick:  That’s a simple blood test. Okay. So, I looked at my K1, and then has struck me something that Dr. Bill Davis told me in 2004. His mother was from Japan and people from certain areas of Japan had all have vitamin K in their diet because they ate natto. And, it’s like, “What’s that?”

Ben:  When I used to race triathlons in Japan, I’d have for breakfast every morning a giant heap of natto with rice wrapped up in a seaweed wrap. I love that stuff.

Patrick:  There you go. So, since I’ve been accused having [00:25:36] _____, well, I’ll be damned. So then, I got on the web and started looking up K1 or phylloquinone. What did I find? A 1999 podcast YouTube video, whatever, from Dr. Mercola talking about how K1 is implicated in heart disease. I said, “Well, I’ll be damned.” So, that’s what got me really diving in K. I was desperate. This thing is still growing and I got to stop it. I got to stop it somehow. So, that’s when I first started really doing the K thing.

So, I looked at the research and realized how much K I needed, looked at what was available on the internet at the time and there wasn’t any. So, I figured out what I needed to get and then I needed to find out where to get it. And, that’s when I learned about SupplySide West, which is a big vitamin show in Las Vegas. I go there to score a key of K1, a key of MK-4, and a key of MK-7, and score a couple of keys of magnesium and a couple of keys of D. And, I take that on based on the literature making my own little pills to save my life.

And, what I did was, if this is right, this is how an engineer looks at things. I deliberately took Crestor, deliberately took it, and drove my LDL down to 70, which is dangerous really, but I drove it down there. And then, if the chemistry is correct and the statement was your body loves K, okay, and since K is carried on the LDL and the HDL and the VLDL particles, if you take K while you’re on Crestor, that’s the theory, you should see your LDL and HDL go up, and with VLDL go up even though you’re taking Crestor.

Ben:  And, the mechanism of action for that again would be what?

Patrick:  The mechanism is simple. The liver robs K. The liver will take K that comes from the small intestine. It will attach it to the LDL. It will attach it to the HDL. It’ll attach it to the VLDL and send it out a new system after it makes sure your clotting and nonclotting factors are okay. That’s key there.

Ben:  Okay. So basically, by increasing the number of passengers necessary to be on the boats, you are initiating an increase in the number of boats in the bloodstream.

Patrick:  Precisely. That was the logic. Well, guess what, three months, that’s exactly what happened. My LDL doubled, went from 70 to 140, my HDL went up about 20% and my VLDL went up 20%. And so, the next step was, okay, now what? Cut out the Crestor and see what happens. So, I cut out the Crestor. And, if everything is correct, my LDL will stabilize and it did. It stabilized.

Ben:  Meaning it would quit elevating.

Patrick:  That’s right. It stayed right there. And then, the lab rat that I am, what happens if you double your gait? Well, you then double your LDL and HDL. And, Siri then answered, is no because your LDL/HDL is a function of hormonal demands of your body and also the demands of your brain as an example for K1 to make the sheathing material for your brain and the sheathing material for your nerves and all other stuff. So, I doubled my K for three months. Nothing happened.

Ben:  LDL and HDL did not increase when you doubled your K.

Patrick: It stabilized. It’s just rock solid.

Ben:  Based on endocrine system regulation of your lipids.

Patrick:  Correct. Because your body makes a hormone called pregnenolone. That’s the grandmother hormone. All hormones are made from pregnenolone. When your pregnenolone level is stabilized and you have a demand for, let’s say, testosterone or estradiol or whatever, it’s made out of LDL using pregnanolone, which happens in the kidneys. Okay. My pregnanolone levels stabilized. My hormone levels all stabilized, just like, well, wow, now, get your heart scan. So, I got my heart scan. Voila, it didn’t change. Yes, I think I figured this out.

So then, on top of all of that, now I’m going in the right direction. I’ve been divorced at that point for three years and I run into a lady. I started dating. She’s [00:30:45] _____ clinical psychologist and she says, “I found something for you.” I said, “What?” “There’s a vitamin K conference in Scottdale, Arizona. This is June of 2011.” I said, “Really?” She says, “Let’s go make the [00:31:01] _____.” I said sounds good to me. So, we go to Scottdale, Arizona and I meet the top K experts in the world. It was great because I’m a perpetual learnaholic. I love to realize how much I don’t know because it keeps me humble.

Ben:  Yeah, I can tell.

Patrick:  And, that allows me to share with people how I learn things and help out other people. So, I got to read sugar, some of the weirdness and savvies and blues and subtle. And so, I started asking them, “If we were going to make a capsule of this stuff because I’m trying to do it for myself, what’s enough?” And, well, they all said, “You can’t take too much of it.” Okay, they all said–

Ben:  Of vitamin K in any form?

Patrick:  Any form, any form. They said it’s contraindicated with people on warfarin or coumadin, but that’s all another sidebar we can talk about. But, they said, this is what you do. [00:32:00] _____ osteoporosis from Japan for three hours talking about this stuff so I could learn from him. He is the Yoda of osteoporosis. And, in studies, he since passed but he was Mr. Vitamin K1. He was Mr. Phylloquinone. So, he’s from Madison, Wisconsin. He loved talking to a Yooper. [00:32:23] _____. And, he explained to me all the stuff that was never published and the stuff that, through his research, was so intuitive but never followed up on it. And then, I told him what I’d been doing with what I’ve been doing. And, they thought that was great that somebody has got the guts to being the doctor here, like a modern-day doctor, like can say, “Hey, let’s see what works.” 

So then, I talked to [00:32:49] _____ about MK-7 and they told me all about that stuff. Great guys, really knowledgeable people. So, when I got back, I started making my own little concoction. And, one of the things that was, [00:33:05] _____ key lot of this was if you take enough vitamin K, it’ll boost your endurance if you’re an athlete. So, if you take a high amount of MK-7, you bind up your peroxides. When you bind up your peroxides, guess what, you don’t get tired. And, 2017 North Texas State did a great study on MK-7 athletic performance. And, being a triathlete, how would you like to have your endurance boosted by 12%?

Ben:  Yeah, it’s like a negative feedback loop. Peroxide buildup will reduce the shuttling of electrons on the electron transport chain because you don’t want to build up more peroxides. You’re essentially sweeping up the garbage more quickly so you can produce ATP without having the mitochondria become exhausted more quickly.

Patrick:  Precisely, man. So, if you’re binding up the reactive oxygen species, that’s going to happen. You can go for it. Fill [00:34:00] _____ anybody else can. So, it’s only less than a milligram. Less a milligram of MK-7 will do that. And so, you would say, “Well, okay, what’s the objective evidence?” Well, I was speaking with a nutrition coach for pole vaulter named Jeremy Scott. He’s now finishing up his orthopedic residency. And Jeremy, I had him on a concoction of the Ks, the D, and the magnesium and the citrulline and lysine. Now, his undergraduate degree is in biophysics, so this guy was a smart dude. He found that he could train instead of Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, take the weekends off, he could train every day at the same level.

In 2010, he was considered, and also, I don’t want to say also, ran, but he wasn’t in the top 10 in the world. In fact, he was not given a shot to even make the UST for 2012. Well, he didn’t and made it to London because he could train every day.

Ben:  I wonder how much of that was the peroxide mitigation versus how much of that might have been an increase in testosterone or endocrine system function due to more pregnanolone around because vitamin K was being replenished. It could be both.

Patrick:  What he did was he experimented with the K. So, he took it and then he didn’t get off it–well, he tried to get off it for a week and he found that after about three days he just couldn’t train. He just couldn’t train at the level he was training at. Then, he take the K again, a two or three-day run-in, he’s right back to where he needed to be. So, you could say, well, okay, that was Jeremy.

Well, there’s another pole vaulter getting ready for Paris, Austin Miller. And, Austin’s doing the same thing with the same results. He can train every day.

Ben:  That’s weird after three days because I thought vitamin K was a fat-soluble vitamin so you’d have more than that stored in your system. 

Patrick: Well, that phrase is a misnomer. Vitamin K stays in your system, at the most, five days at the very most. And, fat-soluble means rise in your LDL, HDL, and VLDL.

Ben:  Okay, got it.

Patrick:  It’s really, really a misnomer. You can’t take too much of it. So, it’s kind of like that. So anyway, I fairly taken a K. And then, in 2012, a number of people said you should start marketing this stuff. And, I said I don’t want to. I’m just having too much fun just kind of helping out my athletic buddies.

Ben:  At that point, what was in it? What was the amount and the different forms of K that you were taking?

Patrick:  Following the advice of the experts, it had 25 milligrams of MK-4, 5 milligrams of K1, and a half a milligram of MK-7 and 2 milligrams of astaxanthin but it’s microencapsulated astaxanthin. It’s microencapsulated so it makes you through your gut, through your stomach juices so it can be bioavailable in your small intestine.

Ben:  Yeah, that’s important, by the way, with astaxanthin. If you are going to take microencapsulated, take it with a meal that contains fats.

Patrick:  That’s right. We watched the business in May of 2013, and my girlfriend and I, and we’ve been curating our site for just all peer-reviewed literature MK. And, you’ve been there, there’s really no real market. It’s all geeky stuff. People complain it’s too geeky.

Ben:  No, no, it’s good. It’s good. The name of the product, by the way, that’s the Koncentrated K. Koncentrated spelled with a K, right?

Patrick: Right. Yeah.

Ben:  Okay. And, that is the MK-1, MK-4, MK-7 and astaxanthin?

Patrick:  Yes.

Ben:  Okay, got it. K1, by the way, that’s phylloquinone, right?

Patrick:  Phylloquinone, right.

Ben:  Okay, got it.

Patrick:  Now, phylloquinone, when you ask a doctor and say, “If I magically took all the K out of your body, what would happen to your body?” Every doctor would say, “Oh, my god, you’ll bleed out. You clot up.”

Ben:  Yeah. That’s why you’re not supposed to take it with blood thinners like warfarin or coumadin, right?

Patrick:  Well, as it turns out with the warfarin and coumadin, the latest, I’ll just say, anecdotal researchers out there, people are taking 100 to 300 micrograms and divided doses of MK-7 to stabilize their INR. Because people on warfarin and coumadin, they die of hurting the arteries.

Ben:  What’s the INR?

Patrick:  The International Normalized Ratio is clotting factors [00:38:51] _____. So, what they’re finding is instead of having your INR doing one of these things, they found that–this is anecdotal, by the way. But, the feedback I got, this works. Hundred micrograms in the morning, hundred at lunch, and hundred at dinner, and the INR just stays just steady. And also, it incrementally, from what I’ve been told, slows down the progression of your heart disease.

Ben:  Interesting. Yeah. So, a couple questions for you. For slowing down the progression of heart disease, in addition to this formula that you’ve described, would you still advise taking magnesium, vitamin D, and vitamin C and also, of course, paying attention to thyroid micronutrients like iodine and selenium?

Patrick:  You have to. A little sidebar. Our biochemical engineer from the pulp and paper industry where I was for 48 years, my subspecialty is really the biochemistry of making pulp and paper. But, my sub, sub-specialty is instrumentation and control systems. I was the kind of guy that if you wanted to design say the cruise control or the anti-lock braking system for your car, I’d be the guy you tap on the shoulder. Could you do this? So, I think in systems and I think in feedback loops and feed-forward loops, that’s just how I think. My son Eric can do the same thing. My other three kids can’t, but Eric can. It’s just something you’re either born with or you’re not.

So, thinking about the systems, that’s why the stuff I sent you is called reverse calcium transport. The first thing that has to have happen is your free T3 has to be right. That in turn activates some enzymes which in turn activates the uncarboxylated osteocalcin, which in turn activates the vitamin D, which in turn activates this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, there’s what you do. So, I’ve had many people say, “What is the minimum I can do?” Because a lot of people call me up and say, “Well, I’m a senior citizen. I don’t have any [00:40:58] ____, what’s the minimum?” Well, get your magnesium right. Red blood cell magnesium, get at the high end of the range. Get your vitamin D right. Somewhere between 60 and 100 nanograms per milliliter. You don’t need to go over 120, but you don’t need to go below 60 either. And, you got to get your free T3 right. That’s either taking sufficient selenium and sufficient iodine or take a supplement.

Ben:  Okay, okay. 

Patrick: You take K1 and you see because that’s part of what’s called Autoschizis, which is a system that’s designed to kill foam cells. The whole concept of foam cells, to kill a foam cell, the beta HDL goes in there and sucks the fat out of the foam cell. When a cell, the PprA run, attaches to the beta HDL and that goes back to your liver and sucks the life out of the foam cell. Also, the K1, so the injection basically of messenger RNA where we heard that before, kills the foam cell. If you don’t have enough K1, the cell won’t get killed. If you don’t have sufficient C, the various, I’ll just say bacterial, viral, and fungal insults to your arteries continue. You got to kill this stuff. So, like I said, it’s a system.

Now, there’s one part of the system a lot of people, they don’t talk about, it’s called fetuin-A. Now, what’s fetuin-A? Fetuin-A is a carrier protein for calcium. It’s made in liver. So, it’s interesting that you can get fetuin–the fetuin-A test is [00:42:46] _____. So, it’s not like it’s some magical thing.

Ben:  Right. So, is that a blood spot or a blood draw?

Patrick:  It’s a blood draw.

Ben:  Okay.

Patrick:  And, use just a spectrometer. It’s a straightforward test.

Ben:  And, that’s fetuin. Is that F-E?

Patrick:  F-E-T-U-I-N dash A, fetuin-A. And, nobody tests for it unless you’re a chronic kidney disease patient, but if you’re on dialysis, your fetuin-A levels drop like a brick and you die heart disease.

Ben:  Interesting. So, the mechanism of action of fetuin-A would be to limit the amount of calcium in the bloodstream?

Patrick:  No, your magnesium loses up to calcium. The fetuin-A grabs on to the calcium. Takes it back to the liver. Takes the bond for processing.

Ben:  Okay, got it. Interesting.

Patrick:  It’s the truck.

Ben:  Yeah. So, probably low fetuin levels would also be associated with osteopenia or osteoporosis, I would imagine.

Patrick:  That’s the theory, but if nobody test for it, you’ll never know. But, women ask if there’s some drug companies trying to make a synthetic fetuin-A. So, what’s that tell you? They’re not doing it for giggles. They’re doing it because they can see a market for it.

Ben:  If you could do it, how would you normalize fetuin-A?

Patrick:  Don’t know because until I get the blood work and the test, test, test, test, test and some of the things I would try, I have no idea.

Ben:  Yeah, I was just curious if there were dietary sources or anything like that.

Patrick: I don’t know. The first thing I would do would be to let’s say for myself, I’d work at myself first. I would take 2 milligrams of MK-7 a day for say six months and test my fetuin-A every week and see what happens and then go off it for six months and see what happens.

Ben:  Yeah, interesting.

Patrick:  See if that made a difference. MK-4, K1, and D and I try a bunch of things.

Ben: Got it. Yeah, yeah.

A lot of functional medicine doctors, they’ll certainly endorse a protocol similar to what you’ve just described although I would say with not as much emphasis on a full spectrum of vitamin K as you’ve noted. But, what about the fact that many of them are recommending so-called plaque, for lack of a better word, melting compounds, things like nattokinase or pomegranate or pomegranate extract? Have you come across any of that?

Patrick:  The issue with that is I’m not going to be a naysayer, but remember, I’m a geek. Let’s just generically say nattokinase. You take nattokinase. It’s an enzyme. How do that get through your stomach acid? Can somebody explain that to me? Now, if the nattoklinase busted up, gets through your stomach acid and gets to your gut bacteria or do you have the right gut bacteria, maybe that gut bacteria could take the, I’ll just call it, chemical trash of what’s left over of the nattokinase and make your case from that. Maybe, unless you’re sure, then it would make sense because the body’s pretty [00:45:49] _____ creative when it comes to building things, building blocks. Give me the basics and I can make anything.

Now, when people talk about nattokinase, do you test it in the blood? Do you then do stool samples to see how much goes out with a stool? Can you test, and since blood work for your MKs is virtually impossible to do. Nobody does it.

Ben:  You mean you can only test for K1.

Patrick:  That’s it. And, when you test K1, if you take in other MKs, the K1 test goes through the roof.

Ben:  So, K1 is an appropriate corollary to MK-4 and MK-7 on a blood.

Patrick:  In theory. That’s correct.

Ben:  Okay.

Patrick:  So, you got to start somewhere. Another test would be uncarboxylated osteocalcin, which they’re going to start to do again. Another test is PIVKA-II for bone health by surrogate heart health is capital N capital T sub x, which is a urine test, which is a measure of basically osteoporosis health. You’re slowing osteoporosis down. But, there really isn’t a test out there that accept HPLC and stuff like that in some research lab.

Ben:  Okay, got it. By the way, for people listening who are scrambling to write that down, I’ll link to these different tests that Patrick’s talking about if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/VitaminKpodcast.

What about this, it’s a relatively new test. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it before. It’s by a company called Prevencio, the HART panel. It is a blood panel that measures for four different protein markers related to plaque accumulation with the idea being that in between something like a CT angiography or calcium scan score, you could do a blood panel to at least see if there’s any evidence of continued plaque accumulation. Are you familiar with that test at all?

Patrick:  Well, I’m not but it’s a good thing to do. Test, test, test. That’s the right thing to do.

Ben:  Yeah.

Patrick:  Because everybody has to dial in their own body. And, the more tests you have, the better feel you have for own body.

Ben:  Do you think there is a case to be made, especially in the presence of elevated calcium or plaque for statins or even a PCSK9 inhibitor?

Patrick:  There is an argument for that for those people who are APOE4, 3, 4, and so forth. There can be an argument for that. And so, from that standpoint, again, get your genetics studies done, check your folic acid metabolism while you’re doing it along with your vitamin A metabolism. But, get your genetics tested. That’s a great thing to do.

Well, how does that work? Well, when you have an, I’ll say, APOE44, that only is a problem post-menopausal and post-andropausal. So, okay, something else is going on that be that as it may, yeah, LDL is your truck that hauls, let’s just say for conversation, your Ks and your CoQ10s around your system. That truck gets reprocessed in the liver every three days. At the end of those three days, that particle you, and this is a surface chemistry thing, has a lot of those Ks taken off of there. A lot of CoQ10s taken off of there. But, there’s still a few left so then the body reprocesses it, but there’s still a few case, whatever. We’re dealing with biochemical statistics here.

So, let’s say you’ve got an LDL particle. Let’s say your brain is making some brain cells, so you make about 400 a day and it sends a signal to the [00:49:52] _____ in your artery wall and say, “Hey, I need some K. I need two on.” So, the LDL particle comes [00:49:59] _____ K1 off of it. Rejiggers it into MK-4, makes sheathing material for the brain. Well, that means the LDL particle is absent K1. Well, it’s like taking chrome off a bumper. What do you think it’s going to happen? It’s going to rust. That’s where the oxidized LDL comes in.

Ben:  Got it.

Patrick:  So now, you got all this stuff kind of–the chrome was taken off the bumper but not all of it. Now, it goes back to the liver and we make new LDL. And, it gets all the stuff reattached to it, and off it goes. While in the APOE4 types, your LDL is reprocessed during five to seven days. So now, you have a lot of naked LDL floating around and not doing you any good. So statistically, it creates a problem.

Now, I would have love to see a study done where people are giving high dose CoQ10, high dose K, doesn’t matter what kind, with and the double-blind study was being with or without the PSK9 and see what happens to your LDL in terms of how much is still stuck to the LDL. So, in that case, if you drop your LDL, in theory, that means you have more stuff to stick to it.

Ben:  In this case, more stuff being more K.

Patrick:  Right. More K, more CoQ10 as an example.

Ben:  Right, interesting.

Patrick:  Vitamin A has his own carrier protein. C has his own carrier protein. D has his own carrier protein.

Ben:  Yeah. Well, yeah, in full disclosure after consulting with Fountain Life and with Next Health, I got a Cleerly CT angiography with both of those organizations over the past couple of years. And, looking at their data that they’ve accumulated with their patients, I saw pretty impressive results with a low-dose statin, rosuvastatin, and acetamide at 5 and 10 milligrams, I believe, along with a twice-monthly injection of PCSK9. So, I’ve actually adopted that protocol over the past six months, but I’m also taking pretty much almost exactly what you’ve described.

Now, actually, I haven’t tried your product. I’ve been using the Tri-K from Designs for Health. I’ve been using the annatto based on my conversation with Dr. Barrie Tan and then magnesium, vitamin D, vitamin C, and I use a thyroid product called Thyroid Fixxr, T2, iodine selenium, et cetera. I learned about when I interviewed Dr. Amie Hornaman, a thyroid doctor. And, due to the idea that I don’t want to be exposed to radiation over and over again on these scans, I won’t be doing another scan for another six months. But, my Apo B has plummeted, my LPa has gone down, my LDL has stabilized, my triglyceride to HDL ratio is about 1, which is fantastic. It remains to be seen what has happened to the plaque accumulation. But, based on what I’ve seen on the clues with the lipids, it seems like it could be effective.

What I would do after that is I would actually cut out the statin and the PCSK9, stay on everything else, and see if it continues to stabilize. That’s my plan at least.

Patrick:  You’re downing your body in. That’s just the way to do it. What’s really important is your Apo-A1 to Apo B100 ratio. That’s more important because you can’t remove the full amount of a foam cell unless you’ve got sufficient Apo-A1. And, you get that by having good fat in your diet.

Ben:  Is that ratio particular number that you look for?

Patrick:  Two to one.

Ben:  Two to one Apo-A1 to Apo B.

Patrick:  Two Apo-A1 to Apo B. Oh, if you got one-to-one, watch out.

Ben:  That would mean your Apo-A1 is suppressed relative to Apo B excessively.

Patrick:  Right. You typically find that with people with a high amount of junk oils in their diet, junk food, it’s a junk food indicator to test for is the neutrophil to HDL ratio is becoming more and more important because neutrophils are typically indicative that you’ve got a viral or bacterial or mold or fungal insult going on in your pipe somewhere in your system. And, that’s just the latest. That information is only about 12 weeks old.

Ben:  Well, I’m getting another blood panel on Saturday that’s pretty comprehensive down at Next Health. I’ll have all these values in hand by the end of next week. So, it’ll be interesting. I just wrote a note to myself.

That neutrophil to HDL ratio, are you looking for anything in particular for that, for a number?

Patrick:  It’s still too soon to tell, but if you do a keyword search on it, it’ll give you some numbers. But basically, what it says is you want high HDL and no neutrophils.

Ben:  Okay, okay. Got it. Interesting.

I would be remiss not to ask you in the little bit of time that we have left if you’ve made diet and exercise modifications.

Patrick:  No. I’ve always been a chuck. So, I pole vault for fun and I’m 71 years old.

Ben:  So, you exercise regularly.

Patrick:  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Ben:  I’m assuming you’re still not doing the, what was that meal you had right before you went in for your first calcium scan score, the gravy and everything. Have you changed that up?

Patrick:  I’ve been eating steak and egg since the mid-60s. Like tonight, I’m going to have a cereal bear-size shelled shrimp and a non-sugar-based, I’ll just say, sauce. I’ll just eat that. That’s dinner. I eat once a day. 

Ben:  Oh, you’re doing an OMAD diet. Interesting. Are you selective about the quality of your food sourcing?

Patrick:  Man, I’m lucky. I live up in Michigan. If you want grass-fed beef, we got it everywhere up here. So, I’m lucky in that regard. So, I have a steak every three days. I have an OMAD every five days, but I just kind of just keep to the 60-30-10 rule.

Ben:  What’s the 60-30-10?

Patrick:  60% fat, 30% protein, 10% complex carbs.

Ben:  Okay.

Patrick:  That’s the research from Dr. [00:56:27] _____.

Ben:  So, if you’re eating one meal a day, you said tonight you’re having a bunch of shrimp and what else?

Patrick:  I make my own hot sauce.

Ben:  Oh, wow.

Patrick:  So, I just kind of get creative. I love cooking.

Ben:  Me too.

Patrick:  So, I’ll cook something really cool. And then, to our treat, I’ll make my own ice cream made out of 100% cream and real raspberries and throw them in there and just call it good and it’s delicious.

Ben:  Interesting.

Patrick:  That is good for you.

Ben:  So, you kind of fall into the category of essentially compressed feeding windows with a low carb, high fat arguably based on your description nearly ketogenic approach.

Patrick:  Yeah.

Ben:  Interesting.

Patrick:  But, I’ve been doing that since the ’60s. Well, we learned playing ice hockey. I never ate a pizza till my senior year of college. But, we would observe in a dress room somebody that would eat a pizza. They would prefer [00:57:23] _____ the next day. And, nobody can figure out why, but nobody ate a pizza. We ate balls of chili like I was going on the style and balls of stew and stuff like that. We just instinctively knew that’s what you needed. And, my dad came off the farm said he was a big steak and eggs kind of guy. So, that’s what we did.

Ben:  Yeah, that’s interesting. I’ve been following a little bit more of a low-carb Mediterranean approach. Pretty rich in polyphenols and flavanols, herbs, and spices. A lot of extra virgin olive oil, dark chocolate. Kind of shifted a little bit more towards fish and omega-3-rich proteins. Still do grass-fed, grass-finished meat, but I’m down to about twice a week for that. Have a really nice pastured pork cut about once a week and then a little bit of poultry like good pasture poultry. So, I rotate quite a bit, but I’ve really been careful to adhere to not something like a strict carnivore approach absent of fibers and polyphenols. But, I do kind of take a little bit more of a Mediterranean approach.

And, I know some people might be saying, well, Patrick’s diet sounds like a heart attack diet. But, I mean, you have the blood work. I mean, you have all your data. Correct me if I’m wrong, your stuff’s published on your website, right?

Patrick:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, he’s anecdotal. It’s his genetics, but it seems to be working for you.

Patrick:  Yeah. Like I said, the Mayo gave me four years to live in 2002. I think I’ve kind of meet that by a bit.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. 

Patrick:  Again, the old saying goes, “You are what you eat.” It’s not what you eat, it’s what you generate in your gut and absorb. That’s what you are. So, if you give your gut bacteria, a steady diet of wrong thing all the time at the same time of day and you don’t confuse them, your gut bacteria will be your gut buddies on and on and on.

Ben:  Yeah. You are what you eat and you’re also you are what you eat ate. That’s also important.

Hey, one last thing I’ll share with you just because I thought of it. We were talking about fermented meat. I’ve been geeking out on this one company Paleovalley. They actually have fermented beef sticks. They have fermented pork as well. They taste fantastic. But, it’s about the closest thing I could find that’s kind of commercially available that you could order that’s similar to what they’re eating on that island of Andorra. And so, I’ve been going through a lot of those as well. Apparently, the fermentation process also reduces the levels of the new 5gc sugar that is associated with some level of inflammation in response to high meat intake. And, they taste great. So, there you go. Maybe if you let me know your address I’ll send you a packet from my pantry. I got a bunch up here.

Patrick:  Okay, [01:00:03] _____. Let me know all your blood work turned out. We just kick it around and come by. And, I’m a guy that answers the phone and I talk to people typically three to four to five times a day. 

Ben:  Wow.

Patrick:  Oh, I got a PhD in leadership. It was my 57th year of coaching. So, I’m just coaching people on how to be healthy.

Ben:  Incredible.

Patrick:  And, first of all, relax, you’re okay and then just slowly but surely test, test, test, and dial your body in.

Ben:  I can certainly get behind the data-driven approach. And, your website’s great. I would recommend if you’re listening in and you really want to geek out, read the “Cardiac Manifesto” part one and part two on Patrick’s website. I’ll link to that in the shownotes as well as everything else we talked about. Just go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/VitaminKpodcast. It’ll all be there. And Patrick, thanks so much, man.

Patrick:  Yeah. And May 1, we’re introducing a product for athletes which will have vitamin D in it.

Ben:  Incredible.

Patrick:  Because athletes be as fast as they burn glucose and most athletes are vitamin D deficient.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah, you’re right. You’re right. Alright, cool. Well, great. This has been a fantastic discussion, very enlightening. And, I’ll make sure in the shownotes I’ll link to other episodes that I’ve done with Dr. William Davis, with the thyroid doctor, with my own calcium scan and Cleerly scan results with Dr. Shah. So, anyways, shownotes will be rich and juicy. And, thank you everyone for listening. Till next time. I’m signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com.

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If you’re dealing with plaque, high calcium scores, coronary artery disease, or other heart concerns, you’re in for an eye-opening podcast that could change your life.

In this episode, you’ll dive into Patrick Theut’s remarkable journey of reversing coronary artery disease, the diet plans and high-dose vitamin regimen that helped him regenerate his pancreas and fix his thyroid, and the crucial role of vitamin K in heart health.

Patrick Theut is a biochemist and engineer who has successfully managed to reverse his coronary artery disease, recording his experience in his fascinating Cardiac Manifesto, linked here. In total, he has invested over 16,000 hours of study into the cause of heart disease. Today, you’ll uncover his insights into why this disease develops, how to stop it from progressing, and protocols that can potentially reverse it. Additionally, Patrick unveils the hidden power of gut health in maintaining a strong heart and reveals his personal dietary secrets that have kept heart disease at bay.

You’ll also delve into Patrick’s groundbreaking venture in cardiac health, K-vitamins.com. His company sells a vitamin K blend called Koncentrated K that includes micro-encapsulated astaxanthin — a potent carotenoid pigment and antioxidant found naturally in algae, shrimp, lobster, crab, and salmon. Koncentrated K also contains the highest dose of the three most researched forms of vitamin K to help you improve your cardiac health and live a long and vibrant life.

Ready to take control of your heart health and explore new frontiers in cardiac wellness? Join me and Patrick as we embark on a journey to understand the intricacies of heart disease, unlock the secrets of optimal cardiac health, and discover groundbreaking approaches to reversing coronary artery disease.

Oh, and for further insights into enhancing your heart health, you can explore the “Resources From This Episode” section, where you’ll find all of my podcasts, plus interesting studies on neutrophil to HDL ratio (NHR). This wealth of information could be life-changing for you or a loved one!

 

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